THREAD CLIPS #47 - 1/8/00

THREAD CLIPS #47

Hello all,
	
I find myself somewhat more baffled than usual this week by the truly
amazing (some would say ridiculous) places that we go here in Groop.  
I try to think about the unsuspecting newbies jumpin in here trying
desperately to figure out who these people are, and what language they
speak?  I admit that I have contributed to the chaos, once or twice, but
to illustrate, I offer a short compilation of words and phrases gleaned
from my notes for this week's NEWS.
	
We have isocyanate, Spanish barley twist, Charlie Brown, rude food, Den
Mother, gilsonite, Tough-O-Meter, cyber domain, roof coating, and
Epiphany.  But of course that makes perfect sense when you consider that
we are all about refinishing furniture.  Huh ?  For any befuddled members
(new or old) this madness does have a method.  We freely mix technical
jargon, slang, and the odd inside joke, in with what would otherwise be a
pretty boring exchange of data.  My point is, that people are full of ideas 
and people make the Groop.
	
I had lunch with my favorite old blind guy on Friday, and he embodies one
of the great attributes of Groop:  I will say, "So Clarkie, what ever happened 
to him ?"  "Well he moved to Cleveland in '49, to live with his brother, and 
the brother worked at mill, and they made parts for airplanes in the war, 
and my cousin Fred was a pilot who flew in Germany, but he got shot and 
was sent to England.  Now those English  ............."


QUOTE OF THE WEEK
	
Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers.      
-   Voltaire.



GROOP NEWS for the Week Ending Sat. Jan. 8, 2000
	
A big Groop welcome goes to Bruce Fleshman of MD, who in spite of 
having been around the biz for 17 years, says that finding us was the
best thing that has happened to him.  And that was before he got a big
"G'day" from littleB, BillM from OwsTRAYLya. And it also turns out that
KevinH and DaveL are your backyard neighbors, BigBill.  I think we should
put BillB and Ty up on the offensive line ?? (Yank football Bill).
	
Bill also sent a greeting to RonT who needs to tell us more about his
"olde world" ways.  And dontcha love Ty, I think he borrowed Steve's
crowbar ?  Sounds like he has some stories to tell which may in fact prove
that you can shine it, and perhaps that he is secretly supplying the truck 
drivers with donuts.  They sure are good for the touchup biz, huh ?
	
Thanks to Daniel and Jeff for clearin up the confusion on Rohm and Haas
as it turns out that their Rh acrylic, post cat product is not for kids.
And to BillL for givin some tips on the popular MS Outlook email program,
which RogerB also likes.	
	
Where else but here could JimR find out so much about Gilsonite (a high
grade natural asphalt)?   Larry uses S-W VanDyke brown glaze, Daniel
offered the zieglerchemical.com site, and a reminder of the two popular
chat sessions, the Wed nite version hosted by our own Jeff (and Kevin, 
I think?) at BadgerPond.  Jeff also offered a source in Cleveland, MF Cachat.  
MartinO knows from tar.  The powdered variety is available from Kremer 
(212-219-2394) , and he adds raw umber pigment (with a metal drier) to 
speed up the drying.  He is also 'sperimentin with adding it to Mohawk
glazes.  I am not at all surprised that the Spanish glaze everything with
tar, it just warms up darker tones beautifully.  The premixed low VOC
version that Martin was referring to is probably the S-W  Sherwood S64N44
that Nancy mentioned, but it sure would be nice if he would post his
homebrew formula and maybe Nancy can tell us what is in the S-W stuff ?? 
Hint.
	
KevinH gets the BoyScout award this week for his great idea of turning
something out of the bottom hunk of the Christmas tree.  GregS may do it,
and maybe KimT  can grab it for an extra day, while BobR pulls his away
from the goats.  I will bet some magazine would print a piece on that, Beav?
	
Ozzie, the best advice I can give you on moving to a new computer, is to
invest in a ZipDrive, either internal or external.  They are about $100-150 
and hold 100mg on each $10 disk, and that is a lotta Groopin. 
Any other ideas ???
	
I am sure glad I sent that note to Deanna, and that she wrote to tell us of 
some really tough times in her life.  The words of encouragement just
poured in, from Kevin, MichaelR, Chod, BenS, CliffS, GaryR (you OK ?)
TommyL, BillM, Ozzie, Wayne, MartinO, and of course Stevo.  
You guys did good.  
The somewhat confused Stevo, no dobut sent a personal email to Deanna 
and promised that he had not sweet talked any one since she has been gone.  
NOT.  Hurry back, Deanna. 
Rich and Ozzie were worried, but I knew you weren't leavin.
	
And we had a close call this week as The Boss steered the ship of Groop
into a new cyber harbor, and grazed a sandbar.  Crowbar to the forehead
works every time, and the bounce went half way round the world (to BillM!). 
I was kinda hopin' for a day off, but I am glad that we are back on the air, 
however you did it.




 SEMI PERMANENT THREADS



 The Duke Holds Court
The unsinkable LOL was a little quiet this week, perhaps because 
so many others were writing, or was he doin a little basking ??  


Show Page
Remember Ozzie's pipe rack ?  Reed just drilled holes in the studs and
stuffed the pipe right in.  Hope you got 2x6 studs, there Reed.  Cut
tennis balls make great end caps, guys ?
	
Check out the great desk that KevinH posted, and the cool pictures of
Gary and Mary's new dream shop.  I know I shouldn't ask Gary, but what
exactly was in all those dumpsters?  Good thing GregW wasn't around.
	
Don't forget the piano caster that RogerB needs !
	


HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE WEEK ENDING 1/8/2000


OLD THREADS


Shellac	
	BillO started us up on a dining table he repaired by adding 8 coats of
3# dewaxed, and frenchin the last one.  The "printing" he described are
impressions left by objects resting on the surface.  Well it didn't take
long for the vote.  WAY too much shellac.  MichaelR started with this
assessment and advice of puttin on less and thin.  He also said to
re-polish it in 90 days.
	
Russ talked of "steaming" the finish with hot stuff, and the said but
practical advice on using post cat instead.  JimMc thought there might be
20 mils on there and explained that you have to extend the dry times as
it gets thicker.  Jeff went on to say that it is not like NC lac and the
only thing that can be rubbed and shipped that fast is, you guessed it,
Duravar.  GregW said it would eventually cure, and that Bill could have
gone right to the FP on top of the old finish.  Kevin agreed that rubbing
it after some considerable time has passed should help it.
	

DuraVar
	I think I am gonna hang this one in the rafters ??



Frenchin (with Steve)
	Reed talked about doin old drawer fronts by cleaning with naptha,
sanding 320 and padding with alcohol and lac reducer first, then adding
oil, shellac and pumice.  This witchcraft attracted his 16yr old son,
which both Steve and Ozzie recognize as one of the good parts of bein a
Dad.  Reed does too, and has organized his life to be home even at work. 
What is up with the high rise glazing thing Reed ??	


Books
	Wow.  BrianMc added a bunch of neat old books including Problems 
of the Finishing Room, Schmidt, Practical Furniture Finishing, Pattou, and the
HUGE Furniture Finishing Decoration and Patching, Pattou&Vaughn, to
mention a few.  With the collection that you have Brian, maybe you would
be willing to collect up a Groop Booklist sometime ???
	
Don't forget to check out Russ' website www.woodfinishingsupplies.com
for the new books.



Aussie Timber
	Seasoning.


Lathe
	Spun out.	


Teeny Nails
	I see advert's for the Accuset Micro Pinner in all the publications now.
About $130.
	


Antiques or Furn Repair (or Yeller pages)
DickT got caught up on his mail and says he is paying $800 a MONTH for
YP in Syracuse, and his competition has even bigger ads !!  He sounds a
little jealous that the in shop guys can get away with little advertising, and 
he is no doubt well skilled 'splainin to Aunt Mildred that her $3 bargain is 
still subject to a $52 min.  FredMc knows the drill, they really do remember 
$5 repairs and $20 hand canes, and if you 'em right you will surely lose 
money.  And if you don't they will whack you with their cane.
	
Just ask ChapM, he is a sucker for a blue hair with the blues, or The Beav, 
who knows that these folks could have yuppie kids, who can spell: 
disposable income.


Crazy Glue
	Fingers stuck together.


Library Steps
	Still waitin for the pic's ??


New Shop
	Roger, you didn't break down and buy the cabinets did you ??
	

PEG
	Pegged.	



Recollections 99
	I hate to let this one go, so make it Recollections 00 if you like. 
Think of it as an essay contest. Nah, just write it.	


Biz Plans
	Outa biz


Caner
	DaveL wrote from some hard knocks on pressed seats, as he 
described jackhammering out the splines (been there) and perhaps even 
doing 6 in a hour (I won't get there).  He also zeroed us back in on Brian's 
original idea, which was for more of us to try cane work.  Dave, have the 
wife try using a gentle wave of the propane torch to get rid of them little hairs.
 
GregS sent a nice apology to Brian, and said he could make him rich in NE.  
Now, I wouldn't say that some members are testy, Greg.  
Stubborn  and opinionated, perhaps, mouthy at times.  	
	
AlanG picked up the right spirit, and checked out Frank's Cane and Rush
for videos and books.  Patience is good.
	
LarryC thanked everyone for the help in finding someone in Seattle, and
strangely, my blind guy suggested contacting Boeing's personnel office,
since they have quite a large blind workforce.  Who knew ?
	
UtahRich told an interesting story of how the big Western NY mfg's used
to sub out the weaving to individuals who would pick up materials and up
to a dozen chairs to be done by family members.  I don't know too many
people who could pass the Hitchcock rush seat in ? hour test now, but
poverty is a great motivator.
	
Brian wrote back to ask about pricing for this work and gave a really
great tip of using a piece of plastic pipe with threaded ends as a vessel
to soak pressed seat material.  Low Tech Hall of Fame for that one.  Fred
wants to know what to do with the spline.  (I don't like them too soggy,
meself).  LarryC reported $1.25/hole with arms and $.37 sq in for pressed
plus 35 to stain and lacquer.  That's better. RonJ is lookin for prices
on fibre rush and other woven seats as well.
	
Thank you DennisC for posting what look like dream prices to me.  $1.45
to $1.65 is a fair price for hand work but I (we) would not do pegged for
$2, maybe not for $3 !  Your pressed seats at $.17 a sq in are about what
we get here on a good day.  I think we all have to raise these prices !


Compressor Accy's
	Whatdya buy Dave ??


NMP Flowover
Ozzie writes with philosophical question about the difference between 
a flow over system and the ole saucepan used by Monsieur Austin.  
Whatever the chemheads say about this Ozzie, you absolutely should 
make the trip to Steve's, he is far worse in person.  Bring the camera.


PR Mag
Glad you got yours Wayne, how does LOL find the time ??  RonJ is 
finally got his, down where the mail is delivered by armadillo if he can 
only escape from the grandkids, and poor BillM has gotta teach those
Polynesian canoe jockeys to paddle faster.	


Recliner
A late entry from MikeD that LaZBoy does guarantee for life (whose?) and
from Ty, who joined the chorus of us who hate these beasts.  It would be
nice if you could post the numbers for Stratford and BarcaLounger, Ty, we
are gonna do a BIG sources directory one of these millennia.	
	

ScotchGard
	What happened Roger ??	


Secret Pin
	Beav: a) they thought it was a secret, b) they forgot, c) they haven't
got a clue.  You shoulda bought it.


Tambour
BillL usta specialize in Hoosiers and now would by the tambour ready
made (Van Dykes) and Vic wrote back to say that he went and did his.  
He is gonna use 2 ply veneer with flexible glue and some wax paper in 
the big vac bag.
	

Wax
MikeD offered some marketing advice to Susan based on his assumption
that its all been done before:  Its the message that counts, or is Godiva
chocolate really that much better ??
	
MartinO was kind enough to copy out Geo Frank's "water wax" recipe and
added that all the fixins are available from www.oldemill.com in kit form.  
This is especially handy if you didn't recognize several of the ingredients. 
JenniferL said she tried it, and would be willing to make some more - don't 
all answer at once.   Martin described some of his problems in using it, 
especially the difficulty in buffing, though he qualified this by saying he 
didn't feel qualified.  You sure SOUND qualified.   How many of us have 
bought raw shellac wax from Kremer lately ?  Martin's own home brew is
Kiwi Brown and Johnson's right from the grocery store.  I recognize those !  
Please post any and all of your opinions of the various waxes, Martin, 
especially the Kiwi Bois. 
Remember that GilH is in the Groop, I just got his price list, which includes 
a fancy English wax called Fiddes, which GregS likes, though he thinks the 
old formula was better.  Anytime you wanna 'splain all this to us Gil, that 
would be fine ?? 
	
Thank you Jeff for the warning about using TransTints in wax, even
though I wouldn't know a glycol ether from
	
JimR was looking for a supplier for bulk wax (Gil ??) other than the farmer, 
and PaulR suggested www.dadant.com/wax and UtahRich suggested a
honey or candle mfg. RickB found CalWax at 626-969-4334 and BobR gets 
the prize for finding SilverBow Honey at 509-765-661, but what the heck you
gonna do with 25 lbs ??
	
Meanwhile, DonE was experimenting with Butcher's Wax, mahogany stain 
and MS as a kind of wiping stain, with shellac sprayed or maybe even 
frenched over it.  Must be an Engish custom.


Workstation Height
	Ozzie says even he uses LOL's shrimp boxes, at 6'3" and the
"horizontally" challenged Melinda says she will too.  Kind of you to be
so kind, Roger.
	Yes Ty, I think LaRoquevators is the word of the week.	




NEW THREADS



Antique Improver (Kramer's)
BobR writes to say that he saw it, he wrote to the "Guy" and he was
looking for ideas.  MartinO says he has used it for years and it is good
for things like reviving old lac to a dull sheen, but he would be wary of
it on valuable antiques.  He says he talked to Kramer, and he was willing
to ask questions.
Why not, now that Seinfeld is canceled ?
	It is in The Sanding Catalog, JimR.


Black Lac Screen
DennisC had this dirty, hazy, smoky screen with pearl inlay to fluff. 
So JimMcN suggested Murphy's Oil Soap first, and MS with a Q-tip for the
pearl.  I pick (a).  What is Nilodor Jim ??
	
GregS uses WaxWash (Mohawk) or the ole T&T (turps and T shirt) with
maybe a little Deluxing Compound for shine.  KevinH is a fan of naptha
since it won't harm the finish.



Cedar
DaveL wrote to ask how to really get that fresh scent back in the cedar
chest, and the trio of Kevin, DaveB and The Beav all knew about oil of
cedar which is available from either, Woodcraft, or Constantine's we
couldn't remember.  And Ozzie what is up with the newspaper rubbin ? 
Doesn't it get all slimy and black and stuff ??


Chair Construction
Thank you to our field reporter, Steve Austin, for his bulletin on the nasty new 
t-head fasteners they are using to holding chairs together nowadays.  However 
much more it would take to do it right, Stevo, must be  too much.
	
You could tell Ozzie was workin himself up a good rant, thinkin about
all that good USA hardwood goin overseas and comin back stapled into
cheapo chairs.  Go ahead, get mad.
	
GaryH wrote on related subject, looking for replacement mechanisms for
courtroom swivel chairs, and that feels like deja-vu all over again. 
Check the Show Page (and maybe the Library).


DeGlueGoo
MartinO kindly responded that this goop is great as dissolving white and
yellow glue and that it smells like vinegar.  Jeff kindly added that it
is gelled acetic acid, which smells like vinegar cuz it is.  The Boss
added the site: www.mallmarts.com/de-glue, and I will add a personal note
that it is great for pressed seat splines.
	
Then Kevin hadda go and talk about wipin his hands on his pants, which
got AlanG goin about long sleeve shirts, and Chap talkin about a walking
pallet (I love that) and GregS feelin a little sorry for his wife who has to
wash all these rags.

This may be "guy" stuff, Boss, but why are so many of us wearin aprons ??
 I'll tell ya - cuz mine stands up on its own.



Desk
Kevin wrote to say that someone contacted him to identify an unusual
desk with a bas-relief front.  JenniferL did really well to come up with
a list of possible mfg's and the observation that the carving is machine
done.  If anyone has info on the Met show, please post it.


Glaze
BillO asked if anyone has tried to spray Mohawk's heavy bodied glaze,
since he is trying to hide some white specks.  MichaelR says sure, and
Chap does it all the time with an air brush, even.  Kevin thought Bill
could just make a shade using TransTints, and GregW (our Man at Mohawk)
says to use the S15 reducer, or the special spraying glaze. DUH.
	
LarryC likes S-W VanDyke Brown, and Reed likes his ole wax applicator
sponge instead of spraying.
	
But if you do, try JeffJ's advice on using 50/50 MS and naptha to get
the best of both.



GluePot
Reed is looking for a cast iron solution to his hide glue woes, and is
thinking about inventing his own.  MichaelR gets around the problems 
with a jar sittin in water in a cheap cooker with the lid on.  Nothing wrong
with that picture, except that GregW's guy with the squeeze bottles is
even more elegant.  BillL has found a use for one of those coffee cup
warmers, but

MartinO says he could probably make the pattern for Reed ?  Tell us about
Aluminum Lab metal PLEASE ?  And get us a picture of yours, Utah, and
tell Russ where to get them cheapo squeeze bottles, he is doin BIZ.
	
MichaelR is looking for a way to heat the surfaces too, and  DaveC (the
Guru of Glue) suggested using a hot iron, even the next day. BobO spoke
of the wonders of a good heat gun (get a variable temp) and served up
another BIG tease with his reference to French Wax DeLuxe.  Whatever 
you do Bob, don't tell Steve first, you know how he is.  So tell US !!
	
MichaelR works in the cold ?  Steve works in the cold.  Steve is crazy. 
Somethin wrong here.
	
Looks like you guys won Reed over to the low tech solution and he has
now joined the stinky glue disciples who really do have a crock, pot that
is.  It may be your smell Reed, but it is still a wet dog to me.


Makita Table Saw
	Can anyone help RogerB figure out how to mount a router ??


Mohwak FAQ
In one of the earliest long threads of Groop, GregW challenged us to
come up with a Dream Label that would tell the user everything they
wanted to know about the product inside.  The silence was deafening.
	
Now Greg is giving us another wonderful opportunity to actively
participate in what could be a landmark in the cooperation between Mfg's
and users.  The Boss recognized the importance of this opportunity, and
will collect the Best of Groop on Mohawk Products.  If not us, who ??



Mistakes
Ozzie posted a tough one.  Seems the table that he fixed with shellac
and blendals, and that the customer accepted, has now somehow changed for
the worse.
	
BrianMc asked what it had been cleaned with or if it was exposed to sun,
and Melinda was the first to say that perhaps it was not the repair but
the light.  Jeff said that the shellac and pig, should not have shifted,
and it very well could be the light.  Not however the flashlight his
customer, nearly from Heaven, used on his repair. 
	
BenS said that some folks are just not ever happy and that we are often
our own worst critics.  BobO noted that Ozzie will be glad he went back,
which is what Kevin advised too.  I don't know about that metaraism stuff
Kevin, but it is the right thing to do. Leave it to RichC to notice that
Earth has moved, though I doubt that Galileo would have used a spray
toner.  and while he and The Boss got into a philosophical discussion of
perfection (not you Steve) Jeff was goin back to the flashlight lady
dressed as Galilieo.   He did say pigment, BTW, not dye.
	Ozzie, they didn't tell you about the costume trick ??


Old Hog
ChapM writes to ask if anyone wants some wonkin big church pews in real
mahog. down in FL.  BrianMc is interested as is Ozzie who has family there.  
I think we all would be Chap, if it were closer.



Red Hog
Johnson wrote to ask about matching a mahog table to some cherry molding, 
since the strong chlorine wasn't doing much to the old dark red.  Lotsa help 
from MichaelR and KevinH who advised a green dye toner, or the 2 part bleach 
if necessary.  GregW liked the toner idea perhaps even using blue as these dye 
colors will not obscure the grain.   JeffJ says it works every time.  GregS said 
to double up on the PartB (peroxide) with the bleach but MarkP said TSP, and 
Stevo gave whole schedule using ox acid and MC stripper.  The advice about 
doing the detail areas first comes from someone who knows.  He also knows 
enough to send some down the road.
	
I am curious about LarryC's Booster Stain remover, to jump start the 2
part bleach, anyone know where to get it here in the East ?  RickB is
right on the strong chlorine bleach, if the good ole Clorox has no
effect, try somethin else.
	
Dontcha love AlanN for sayin "fake it" with a little Minwax Magic and
vinyl sealer.  Quick and painless - as long as you are a master glazer. 
BobO must be, as he told all about how to slide some skinny colored 
lac on and then rub it, dry brush and mottle it to get the mahog to be
cherry.  Easy for you to say.  Why do you like the Minwax, Alan ??
	Glad the 2 part worked, Johnson, Groop did too.
	

Wheelchair
DennisC wrote to say that he needs to rethink his shop, and fortunately
GaryH is already thinkin ahead as he builds his. TyF had some great ideas
like fitting under benches, shortening the drill press, and hanging
outlets.  Thank your brother for us.
We need a picture of your oversized school desk workstation, Ozzie, or
your drawing.  We can handle it.  And thanks for the story about your
blind guy.  Guts are the key.
	

WhiteWood
GregW wrote to ask for help with a course he is preparing on whitewood 
for a community college, concentrating on repairs prior to finishing during 
mfg with things like epoxy and bondo.  FredMc thought about wood prep 
and glue size and cleaning glue (yeah) and the ole timers will remember 
that BruceC did write a lot of tips for Famowood that are in the Library.  
LOL likes to mix wood dust with epoxy, and got us thinkin about colors 
for Bondo hardener ?! That got BobO's attention, and GregS wondered if 
you could use Transtints ?  Jeff said probably, just not in cat polyurethane.  
Sandwich between coats of polyester ?  Wow.
	
RichC likes the tan Plasticwood from Mohawk, and Greg says you color 'em
with Blendals.  Kevin mentioned ViviTones from Homestead, which sound
really interesting ? (hint).
	
And it guess where Greg is teaching ?  Right in TommyL's backyard, and
not that far from TonyA - this Groop is global.



ADDENDUM TO QUOTE OF THE WEEK
	
Judge the Groop by what we share, rather than how we share it. 
 - Voltmeter 


LOOSE THREADS
	
Don't forget to get us a photo of your barley twist, Martin, still
sounds like beer to me.
	
For anyone interested in www.refinished.com ??  
brooklynbridge.com is available too.  
Do you get a DEED, or what ?
	
We really do miss you Deanna.

Signing off from Groopville,

MikeM
Nary a flake to been seen in Upstate NY





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